Curse

Ratson Itamar · May 22, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I get your point Moloch, I just can't seem to accept sacrificing your elite skill for conditions removal in PvE. I put "Incoming!" and I had to mirco just like you've said, I guess the skill function wasn't updated correctly if at all for the hero AI. Anet already got the AI built for that skill via "FB!"...I will leave a complaint in the official wiki. Don't hold your breath though.

Luckily I already got the first skill of every hero bar bound to 1-3 on my keyboard so microing it is easy. I think that it's a better option than "IJAFW" in most zones. It seems like a better fit to your build's goal - fast, fast and faster. "Incoming!" also has a downside, it's (largely) only good while moving from mob to mob, meaning your MB won't have an elite while in combat. I guess the loss could be minimized by the fact that he will also have less pressure on his energy, allowing to take more energy consuming skills.

In addition, I kicked BotM and SoLS and switched "NS!" for "SYG!". "FB!" and "Incoming!" will keep many if not most of your minions alive while traveling so there's no need for BotM. I didn't have energy issues so I removed SoLS as well. I'm not completely sure what to put there instead since I have to keep in mind no to take skills that can be spammed. You could bring Dark Bond and Infuse Condition if you would like to...

Oh, I almost forgot, I replaced Taste of Death for Putrid Bill. Now that I think about it, you could put Taste of Death back on in one of the two available slots.

I have done some more testing and it seems in areas where the minions die real fast, the MB will run into energy problems. I guess SoLS is needed in some instances after all. Also don't forget to lock "Incoming!" if you bring it, the hero seems to use it with it's old function in mind.

AtomicMew · May 23, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

You're greatly overestimating the time cost of death nova spamming. First of all, you are right that heroes spend a lot of time casting it. I take 2 MMs but only 1 copy of death nova. But the fact is, if you really need something cast (FF, prot spirit etc), you can just manual it.

Further on this point below:

Death nova (and discord) are insanely overpowered skills, which is why idc that my hero spends 80% of the time casting them. Both these skills need to be spammed to be effective. Other useful skills, like aegis, prot spirit, extinguish etc, do not take up much time, and so it doesn't matter that they are not cast as often. Prot spirit for example, honestly only needs to be cast every ~100 seconds or so, yet over the course of a VQ, it will probably negate several thousand damage.

Taking subpar "instacast" shouts does not make up for the fact that they are subpar. The only reason to take N/P is for FB! and/or Incoming! and possibly SYG!.

Moloch Vein · May 23, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

You cannot manual every cast of a "spammable" spell like Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond; that's simply not feasible. That's why a "lifesaver" is not very effective when run on a MB.

You're right, however, that a skill like Aegis is superbly run on an MB. Any set-it-and-forget-it skill is.

AtomicMew · May 26, 2009, 06:18 AM // 06:18

You misunderstand the purpose of prot spirit. One pre-cast and proper aggro are all you need.

Consider that heroes are terrible at using PS, anyway. It would probably be better to just manual it all the time anyway. It doesn't need to be "spammed" to be effective.

zwei2stein · May 26, 2009, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Why would you bring BoTM/Feast on MM bomber?

It's not like you really want to heal em during combat and and fallback/incoming will do just fine job keeping em topped up between encounters.

Elephantaliste · May 26, 2009, 08:45 AM // 08:45

used 2 Paras Incoming/IJAFW + Fallback, nice combos to run to nicholas...

Coney · May 26, 2009, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Prolly repeats, but just responding to OP post. Seems like way too much heals to me ([blood of the master] and [taste of death] really 2 wasted slots - heros tend to spam BOTM, hemorrhaging like stuck pigs, and by using these two you miss out on [putrid bile], [rotting flesh], [deathly swarm], [never give up] and others)... At one time I tried TOD, but it wasn't clear if/when they ever used it (do they use it when low on health? when minion is near MOB? *RANDOMLY*[most likely]? when out of combat [OOC]?)

Jagged gives you a free 2 for 1 deal - minion blows up DN-style, jagged appears out of thin air for second DN-style explosion - that's the point (for me at least), not the bleed. Not only that, but jagged takes care of minion heal issues (so what, they die - jagged appears in its place). I find the group healers (H/H) do a good enough job of keeping the minions alive, and out of combat I always micro jagged...

I'd recommend [incoming] for the elite - nice with fallback. Heros suxor at using it OOC, but it give nice OOC run speed if you micro it at the right time...

zwei2stein · May 26, 2009, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coney

... [putrid bile], [rotting flesh], [deathly swarm], [never give up] ...

Now, THOSE would be wasted skill slots. /facepalm style of wasted skill slots.

Coney · May 26, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Now, THOSE would be wasted skill slots. /facepalm style of wasted skill slots.

Guess I must have rubbed you the wrong way somewhere else in the forums. At least you gave well intentioned reasoning to back up your response...

I'll admit, the last 3 aren't my preferred choices, however [putrid bile] is godly. It has a low enough recharge that it isn't spammable, but can be gotten off potentially twice during battle with only 1sec cast. I myself bring a res capability on the bomber as well, either [resurrection chant], [vengeance], [resurrection signet], etc. Controlled micro of [rotting flesh] has its role - obviously the spammability/slow cast is an issue, given the fcn(rnd(x)) nature of hero skill use... [never give up] can be a hench lifesaver during longer battles, when they tend to go OOM and run low on health (healer/prot/mages)... My point was too much (redundant) heal, not enough DPS...

With [foul feast] on a curses hero and [mend body and soul] on the resto healer (and assuming the healer hench has some condition removal), I'd rather use [icy veins] than the condition removal elite...

Xenomortis · May 26, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

[Putrid Bile] (at 16 DM) deals 89 AoE damage when the target dies. A hero is not likely to use it (what with Death Nova) and the damage isn't really worthwhile. However, it will probably work out.

[Deathly Swarm] is cold damage and a waste of a MM/MB's time and quite valuable (at times) energy.

[Rotting Flesh] has a 3 second cast time, a high energy cost, is far too spammable for a hero and all it does is spread some quite pathetic degeneration about (that can sometimes affect you too).

Ratson Itamar · May 26, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

[Putrid Bile] (at 16 DM) deals 89 AoE damage when the target dies. A hero is not likely to use it (what with Death Nova) and the damage isn't really worthwhile. However, it will probably work out.

Xeonmortis, from your post it seems that you don't use it on your hero/es, so I'll try to shed some light on the issue from my own experience. Heroes spam it on recharge. 90 AoE damage every 13 seconds is very welcome on my MB especially when I equip him with Icy Veins. Also, if you have multiple copies of it the heroes won't to use it on the same target, at times activating a chain reaction.

It's damage isn't great considering it's recharge but it's good enough when you have the space for it. What I'm trying to say is if you need another skill then kick this one but if there's an open slot up for grabs then Putrid Bile is a very good choice. - Everything I've said is directed at heroes, it seems to be hazy nowadays.

- I agree 100% on everything else Xeonmortis has said -

Xenomortis · May 26, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Well to be honest, I'd rather have some defensive skills on my MB. [Dwayna's Sorry] is useful, so are some prots and a number of paragon shouts are always good to bring along. All of these have a much more useful affect than the pitiful one shot damage given by damage skills you could give them.

Seriously, I don't need or really want 90 AoE damage every 13 seconds if it comes at the cost of a precious skill slot. And I want Icy Veins even less.

Ratson Itamar · May 26, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

You don't have to choose between Dwayna's Sorrow and Putrid Bile... Either way, I don't need that much defense or utility all of the time so I bring Icy Veins along from time to time. Just because Moloch says that he like to put an utility elite on his MB doesn't mean that it's the only option available, you're starting to seem like a fanboy to me.

snaek · May 26, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Hardly anything new. People have been using dual N/P's to speed clear VQs since forever.

Your version needs serious rework.

First off, why would you take "it's just a flesh wound" when you can take FF, which is practically the same thing except non-elite and also e-management??

Secondly, Heroes are terrible with NS" SYG! Is a far superior skill if you dont have SY! Or possibly FTW! Otherwise, Command doesn't offer you much besides FB! and possibly use of a shield.

Lastly, elite choice. The best, by far is discord. But if you're unwilling to use discord, and don't want the standard AotL or JB, Incoming! would be a decent choice to speed up your VQs.

Considering 70-80% of the time spent during a VQ is running from place to place, Incoming! would be your best choice if you are just going for pure speed.

this man speaks truth. op builds are mediocre at best.

i understand your reasons for not wanting to take [foul feast] because of the recent nerf... but it is still superior to ["its just a flesh wound!"] because it does not take up your elite slot.

i've been running ["charge!"] mm builds pre-factions. nightfall was a blessing, because then it opened up the elite slot with ["fallback!"]. and then came the ["incomming!"] buff, that allowed for near-perma team-ims (the fact that it heals minions is a plus)

however, my new fave mm elite has to be [aura of the lich]. mostly due to it being really fun to mess around with.

smilingscar · May 26, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

I think some people are missing one of the key advantages of running "IJaFW" on this build, it allows for more possibilities with your Necro healer.

With traditional sabway, the N/rt healer generally provides the condition removal for the team through [[mend body and soul] and [[weapon of remedy]. However, with your MB cleansing conditions at will (just vanquished unwaking waters for a test run, my eyes couldn't catch any ally with a condition except the MB), you're free to explore other skill possibilities such as [[xinrae's weapon] or a N/mo with healing prayers or protection prayers. I think it becomes easier to bring hex removal too, once your healer is free from the responsibility of condition removal. Also, if you miss [[jagged bones] that much, just bring another MB; I usually bring two anyway.

I'm getting pretty good results from the following:

N/mo: Jagged Bones; Animate Bone Minions; Death Nova; Putrid Bile; Signet of Lost Souls; Protective Spirit; Spirit Bond; Aegis.

N/p: Animate Bone Minions; Death Nova; Putrid Bile; Signet of Lost Souls; It's Just a Flesh Wound; Never Surrender; Fall Back!; God Speed.

N/mo: Dwayna's Sorrow; Word of Healing; Patient Spirit; Dwayna's Kiss; Cure Hex; Heal Party; Signet of Lost Souls; Resurrection Signet.

At any one time I have 14-18 explodable minions on the field, with a constant speedboost, with protections and party-wide healing to spare, and I'm virtually immune to conditions. Not too shabby.

snaek · May 26, 2009, 05:33 PM // 17:33

^no, we're just saying that [foul feast] > ["its just a flesh wound!"], despite the nerf to ff, and the buff to ijafw.

don't get me wrong, ijafw is actually one of my favourite skills (i've liked it even before the buff), but theres little to no point in it over foul feast.

Ratson Itamar · May 26, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I have to agree with snaek, IJaFW (- I Just...a...F*ck Wammos!) is a waste of an elite. I didn't really like taking FF because my N/Rt would waste her MB&S on the target with the condition a second after/before my MB used FF on him.

Though, I didn't think about making her N/Mo. Is it overall better? I mean, Life is just too awesome not to take with you to basically anywhere. (Keep in mind that I don't take two MBs with me).

smilingscar · May 28, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

Though, I didn't think about making her N/Mo. Is it overall better? I mean, Life is just too awesome not to take with you to basically anywhere. (Keep in mind that I don't take two MBs with me).

I would say you lose a little spike healing power because you lose [spirit light] and lack divine favor, but your healing is faster and stronger party wide. [life] is darn good, but [dwayna's sorrow] with masses of exploding minions outshines it in my opinion. Plus you don't have to worry about your healer saccing health when the spirit dies. You do lose condition removal, but your other heroes can take care of that and you gain hex removal.

Gigashadow · May 28, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

The problem with relying on Dwayna's Sorrow for party heals instead of Life and PwK (double-drop helps too after a big spike), is that you are screwed if you don't have any minions around. This can happen, for example, if you wipe on an elemental dungeon boss and rez with no way to make any more minions.

My thinking on it is that when things are going well, Life and PwK are enough party healing, and when things aren't going well (minions all dead), at least those 2 things are still working.

AtomicMew · May 28, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

The problem with relying on Dwayna's Sorrow for party heals instead of Life and PwK (double-drop helps too after a big spike), is that you are screwed if you don't have any minions around. This can happen, for example, if you wipe on an elemental dungeon boss and rez with no way to make any more minions.

My thinking on it is that when things are going well, Life and PwK are enough party healing, and when things aren't going well (minions all dead), at least those 2 things are still working.

Well said. I think Dwayna's is overrated, personally :P